[00:00:41] Now we pick a travel destination we often think about how close it is to local transport what the weather's going to be like and if the area we're staying in is safe. But how is that different for LGBTQ travelers. Does being LGBTQ restrict the number of destinations available to you make hell is an LGBTQ travel blogger and public speaker who together with her wife Lindsey run an LGBTQ travel blog dopes on the road. Hello guys how are we.
[00:01:09] Hi thanks for having us. Of course. Thank you for stopping by so we will start off with you make. When did you first kind of start traveling.
[00:01:16] Sure. So I have a little bit of an unconventional travel story. I was very long story short this is a very long story but my mom was a teenager when she had my brother and I and then was diagnosed with terminal brain cancer when I was eight years old. So we traveled for unconventional reasons. We traveled because I needed some to say my mom was sick having treatment. We had to go to meet family we had somewhere that we needed to go. And so by route of a tragic situation I got to see a lot of the United States travelling by car you get to see a lot more we did a lot of road trips and all of our relatives lived in different parts of the country. So we would zigzag across the country you know meeting with Grandma. Meeting with us and with this uncle and so on and so forth. But it fostered a lot of conversations that kind of taught me to ask questions and taught me to question when I was seeing and know how things are different from here from there within the United States. So obviously not as different as say two different countries but kind of fostered that thirst for otherness and seeing things around the world that I didn't actually take my international first international trip until I was in college. But I definitely think that was the foundation for me.
Yeah I mean I didn't even travel internationally until my last year of uni said yeah. Lindsey have you traveled much before you met Meg.
[00:02:31] I had traveled some my early life was mostly defined as an athlete. I spent most of my time playing basketball at my early travel days are mostly defined by bus trips with teammates and family. We had some you know family vacations sprinkled in here and there. But for me my like desire to travel I think really started as I became more confident in my own just more confident in myself. My you know I came out to my family cut my hair just kind of I grew into myself and then wanted to be introduced and meet more people like me. CCS seek out some of the queer community and when I did that I kind of felt like the whole world opened up because I'm from small town Pennsylvania and there's just really not a lot going on and everybody's kind of the same. And then as soon as I got out for the first time and it was like this incredible breath of fresh air like there are people like me in the world and it just made me want to seek it out like 100 times more. How did you two meet the Internet.
[00:03:29] Yeah I like what it's like on with the Internet. Yeah.
[00:03:36] Now we met on a dating site and I was living in York City from Brooklyn. So I was there and Lenz was in Pennsylvania. And now like in retrospect it's really funny to think about like those early first meetings because we're just from completely different backgrounds and you know they were like small things like the first time I went to Pennsylvania.
[00:03:55] I was completely overwhelmed by the grocery store too many choices to make choices. Yeah yeah.
[00:04:01] Well before making your greatest trip as an LGBTQ couple. Were you guys nervous. Like what were your thoughts going to head when this was something you guys decided to do.
[00:04:11] Well I knew she was the one when I decided to move to South Korea. I got a job about eight months into us dating and I said So I think I'm moving to Korea. And she said Awesome can I come visit. And I was like you know we like OK like Well we'll figure this out. And it was crazy because she'd never traveled internationally and didn't know anything about Korea and was just kind of like we'll figure it out.
[00:04:35] And at this point you were so in Pennsylvania. Yes. Oh yeah yeah. I hadn't done the the four big international trip yet. Yeah. So Korea was my first.
[00:04:42] And so we I went for the first couple of months started my job and then she came out for a few months and then we used Korea as a base to kind of travel a lot of different places in Asia. And yeah we kind of never stopped since then and since then you had the travel bug and you're like let's never stop.
[00:05:00] Yeah absolutely. Well does anywhere stand out as being a place you're particularly concerned about visiting as a LGBTQ couple.
[00:05:08] Well there's still 70 destinations where it's illegal to be LGBT and it varies widely depending on the destination.
[00:05:16] So all the way from 14 countries where it's punishable by death through countries where they have light prison sentences and I say that and just because of course it's ridiculous to have a prison sentence but there there's a humongous difference. But then on the opposite side of the spectrum there's still destinations that are politically really great for LGBT people but Brazil is a great example. They have tons of great and collusive policies in Brazil but then they also have the you know the highest rate of transgender murders. So it's more we talk about anti LGBT destinations a lot but it's more nuanced than just like oh good and bad.
[00:05:51] Know there's a big gray area there. It's just like like you said like the the the the punishment or you know just the way. Yeah it's just very gray area and how what happens LGBTQ people as they go traveling into the country right. Yes. But you guys traveled to Egypt. Yes. Yes. What was it that made you want to go to Egypt.
[00:06:12] Well I really had kind of a schoolgirl crush on Egypt.
[00:06:16] I mean I still do. I still haven't I haven't gone and I just I don't go to like to like see I like the tombs and everything Ahmed's. I think there's diamonds under the Sphinx. Not really. But you never know. You never know. You never know.
Every bit as incredible as that. Like you're making that your head. It really is.
[00:06:31] Yeah but it's like you know you're like in school and you see like five pictures of the world and one of them is always the pyramids. And I was like I just I want to see this and and Linda and I were like talking about which destinations should we go to and we kind of just agreed like Egypt was like that magical travel destination you know like hard travel when you guys landed in Egypt what was going through your head.
[00:06:53] Lindsey what was going through your head as you landed.
[00:06:55] I think even more before we landed I think the biggest moment for us was before we just a couple days leading up to the trip there had been 50 people arrested for flying a pack a flag at a concert. And so they had been arrested like gay. Yes and gay in Egypt was like a hot button issue. And I remember we were boarding the flight and we sat down and we kind of made eye contact and we were like holding hands. And I remember asking her the question like What do I do if I get arrested. And that was the first time we had really had that moment but like we're doing something incredible. But there it's not without risk. And I think that for us for both of us was the moment that we were like This is a big big change in the way we travel.
[00:07:42] And that's probably the moment that all like remember about like the start of the trip. I think that moment for both of us was a really really powerful.
[00:07:50] So when you guys got there were you guys already kind of like crap.
[00:07:54] We have to act differently. Like how are you gay. How are you guys as a couple. You gay super affectionate already. Or was it kind of like not a thing when you guys landed in Egypt that you had to worry too much on that.
[00:08:04] I think we were when we first started dating but because true love is still there still that travel has become such a huge part of our life. We're more conscious like our actions and the things that we're doing. So we lived in South Korea where as a culture they're just not OK with PDA like gay straight doesn't matter. It's just part of the culture and what we were living there we really tried to respect that. You know it's just part of being an expat you know. But as the years have gone by we definitely are more or less affectionate depending on where we are. We try to be you know always first respectful of the destination.
[00:08:40] So particularly in Egypt I think we were definitely aware of it. Sure. Just keeping that like extra step between us kind of thing. But we had made the decision to travel with Kentucky and travel in the group setting to kind of give us that buffer where you know a little bit worried to just go out on our own and kind of like here's Egypt.
[00:08:59] Like figure it out when you hear horror stories you know even like you're like straight couples and just like PDA you know like the ramsbury wrong time and you're just like Oh yeah well.
[00:09:08] And for us there was a lot there was the fear also came from like our gender expression. And so me traveling as a woman in a country that's known for you know really aggressive kind of actions against women and Linds who's visibly gay and gender nonconforming you know it was we definitely had some thoughts about like what what's it like in the pre prep pre prep process and what do we do. What are we going to where are we going. You know it's a little less for us about like are we going to physically touch and more about one's gender expression and how people are going to perceive her we know are they going to think she's a man. She's often mistaken for a. She's so tall. So those kind of things were the stuff that's kind of going through our head as we landed. But luckily we had a really fabulous trip manager who the first day we went to the Pyramids of Giza and you know that's like the thing thing about this particular Kentucky trip is that you think like all the parents are gonna be the highlight. But you know it's like every single day you do something really awesome. And so we're like oh the pyramids first day OK. So I'm taking pictures lands and just taking pictures of me and then we do like the world's most awkward photo we're really really conscious that like we're not touching.
It's like you're saying it's a picture together and you're like do I put my arm around like like you. And then it just comes out Oh great.
[00:10:28] And then what did he say to you.
[00:10:30] Art trip manager came over and he just was like really really subtle we're just like just take the picture like you're fine just take the picture and we were kind of like looked at each other and we're like OK so we like moved closer and we got like that image it's literally an image that we'll like have for the rest of our lives like this was our trip. This was our. This was our pyramids moment. But it was definitely a moment that would have been lost without getting a little bit a nudge from the trip manager.
[00:10:54] Yeah. It's one of those things that you would hope wouldn't have to be a thing to worry about when wanting to take such a memorable picture and just had like a moment together Lindsay. So as a gender nonconforming person when you go to countries where people might read you as male they might read you as female. What kind of things do you have to think about in that situation.
[00:11:13] Yeah I. I feel like it's like a constant series of decisions for me mostly. I try to pretty early on we try to gauge are the people here are they reading me as male or female. And that's like the first question usually when I'm in the UK or when I'm in the States it's pretty safe to say like most people recognize me as female but like an hour trip to Istanbul it was 100 percent the opposite. People read me 100 percent as male. And so I think knowing kind of early on which one you know people are leaning towards it makes the trip a little bit smoother. Now obviously I'm super privileged in the fact that I have that choice. There's so many people that don't have that you know they are clearly just somewhere in between gay the whole time. But for me I can put a hat on and I'm tall and I can just look like a blind and you can just follow you right into the men's bathroom and nobody thinks anything. And so that's kind of what we try to do but I also try to be really respectful of the culture and that's something that both both Meg and I talk about a lot is the best example is we were and we were just in Istanbul and I wanted to go to mosques like that's you know part of what you go to Istanbul for. And we had so many conversations about like do I cover my hair. That's what that's what's appropriate for a female to do. But everyone thinks I'm a guy. And so if I cover my hair. First of all is in an unsafe situation because everyone's thinking why is this man covering his hair. And second of all is it drawing away the attention from it should be on the mosque it should be on everyone here having this experience but instead they're wondering what is this man doing in the corner with his hair covered. You know what I mean. And so for me it's a series of questions or a series of decisions of how to stay true to myself how to be appropriate with the culture and most of all how to stay safe.
[00:13:01] So what did Jeff which did you end up doing. I did not cover my hair. OK.
[00:13:04] But at that at that point I just it felt like the safest choice I think is what the ultimate the decision came down.
[00:13:09] Yeah. And I ended up choosing to cover my hair Allianz didn't cover hers and we were a little bit concerned about you know when we posted the images online or whatever and our followers think and all of that but ultimately it provided a kind of unique opportunity to talk about some of these issues of gender and culture and these decisions that we make in a way that wouldn't have happened if you hadn't gone and missed out on that experience.
[00:13:30] Now you actually bring up a good point. Have you guys received any backlash across social media for visiting country with anti-gay laws or like what have been some of the responses you've made. All right. What are some of the responses you've received.
[00:13:41] Yeah absolutely. So we've had a couple articles specifically about anti LGBT stuff go viral. One the first one was reposted by George Takei and the comments were just filled with well just don't make out. Now it's like OK well there's a lot of people who don't pass you know you can't just go to a place like budget up you know I mean you can't just go to a place and be like Oh we'll be more feminine let's put on a dress. You'll be fine if they're just people who don't pass as straight and it's the reality. So it's a lot more than just like oh don't have PDA and certain destinations you know. So we had a lot of opportunity to respond to comments like that. We had a lot of really really negative comments around the pole shooting time it was just like a really tragic point in LGBT history American history but for the most part people are pretty cool and people are pretty interested in what we're doing and really welcoming and supportive.
[00:14:39] So those are kind of outlier experiences but I also think it's been amazing every time we're in a place that's like you know traditionally thought of as anti LGBT. You would be shocked by the amount of messages of people that see our content on social and we're like oh my gosh I can't believe you're here. You know like these are the parties you should go to or know all this because like the gay people exist everywhere. And so when they see us that that we're there they want to share like their tiny little queer world with us. And that's been really really cool.
[00:15:07] And just because a country has anti-gay laws doesn't as I mean that is the entire framework of everyone who lives in that country. Right. Right. Well what advice would you guys give to other LGBTQ travelers especially those seeking to travel to countries with anti LGBTQ laws in place.
[00:15:24] I would definitely say do your homework. First of all you have to you know find out not only what what the the the policies are but you can get a pretty good gauge of what it's like for people on the ground. So do a lot of reading you're also really going to have to make a lot of decisions for yourself. And because everyone's gender presentation is different everyone's experience is going to be different. But like first and foremost do your homework before you get on the ground would you would be surprised by how many times we've had people go places and then reach out to us and be like I went to this place and it was we had a terrible experience and it's like on one hand. I'm really sorry that you're you know your holiday was terrible but there is a lot of information out there saying like if you want to go make out with your wife on the beach like maybe Jamaica isn't the place where you know it's true it's true.
[00:16:15] Yeah yeah yeah well you know one of the reasons that we do what we do is because there isn't that much information available for some of these topics. And so like for example when we were going to Egypt we like asked and all of these different like LGBT Facebook groups you know has anybody been to Egypt who's also gender nonconforming What was your experience like. What was this. And sometimes people can come up with really great advice that you would have considered. And sometimes it's like crickets. So that's why we try to go to some these places that are less known and less visited so that we can create the contents for other people who want to see impairments you know like want to see somebody like Indonesia Jamaica all these beautiful places that don't necessarily have the policies in place. We wish they did.
[00:16:58] No I mean it's really good because it's like you guys mentioned that you guys had a little hard time trying to find the information you needed especially for you.
Lindsey when you were traveling as a gender nonconformity. But it's good that you guys are there now. You are making the experiences to share information with people who now had the question they can look to you guys and hear about your guys experiences.
[00:17:21]That's the hope that is what we're doing.
[00:17:24] Well have you guys ever been put off from visiting a country and if not what is it that keeps you going.
[00:17:31] Well I kind of draw the line beheading beheading there.
[00:17:34] I think that is fair.
[00:17:36] I mean after their death I mean I joke but I do you know there are countries that are more and less risky and so there is a huge big great big world out there to see you. You know we've seen a lot of it but definitely not all of it. So we're prioritizing places ahead. You know say countries where you're beheaded and yeah. That's fair.
[00:17:59] Yeah the death penalty is scary to anyone. Yes. No I I think those are very good.
[00:18:05] You've convinced me. But for our listeners in a nutshell me why LGBTQ travellers should travel to places such as Egypt which has anti LGBTQ laws because LGBT people deserve to see the beauty and wonder of the world regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity. There it is. Well thank you ladies so much for coming in and talking to us. I really appreciate it. You have been wonderful.
[00:18:29] Thank you. Thank you to Megan Lindsey Cale for speaking so passionately about LGBTQ travel. Now it's time for the part of the podcast where Callie travel porn if you're ready to find that next destination to post for on the ground you're going to love what's next. This is all about the epic unique and often undiscovered experiences. You'll want to check out for yourself today's trouble point. It's taken us inside Africa now. Africa is definitely on my bucket list and hopefully it's going to be on yours too to tell us more about it is traveler and journalist Adam Hancock.
[00:19:12] Welcome to the podcast Adam. Thank you very much. So when did you go to Africa.
[00:19:16] So I went to visit East Africa in 2017. OK. Yes I went to Kenya Uganda and Rwanda. OK. Cool. So when you decided to finally go on this trip slash jealous. Where did you start. So I started in Nairobi the capital of Kenya which is a good transport hub for the region a little bit of an intimidating place to star myself. It's a city that has a bit of a bad reputation. I would say it's quite a full answer quite an intense city but it's also kind of diving into the deep end as it were. So it was a great place actually to kind of get to grips. Trial by Fire. Trial by fire. Exactly. I note that first day when I arrived from the airport I was on my own heading off in a taxi to where I was staying. Everything was different. And as well as being massively excited I was also massively scared. But I think that's one of the chill that the friends even of travel is just getting out of your comfort zone into a new environment and an embrace and all and Nairobi really was.
[00:20:14] So when you landed Do you really have kind of like a route planned or you literally would like hit the ground here like what to do next. It was a mixture of both.
[00:20:21] I was actually intending to go from Nairobi to Cape Town. But I quickly sort of realized that I hadn't given myself enough time. But then I thought why Rush within frequent trips just to just to follow a route when actually I could explore a bit more have a bit more time in the three countries. And that's what I did. I kind of had pencilled in a bit of a route and I obviously had like an entrance and an exit point but a lot of it was also going off over travellers recommendations reading blogs people that I met along the way and just kind of random adventures which popped up along the way as well. You know I went to free countries in East Africa so different to North Africa so different to southern Africa is so different to the west. Each country was different let alone the entire continent. So yeah scratching the surface.
[00:21:06] So I know I definitely want to go to Africa and when I think about it one of the things I always think about is safaris. Yes. So did you do any of those while you were there.
[00:21:14] Yes. In Kenya I visited the Maasai Mara for two days. It was on safari obviously Safari is is a bucket list item for most people especially in Africa. So I couldn't not go in and do a safari. And we got all the animals we got all five of the big five.
[00:21:32] Please don't ask me to name the big five because I can't remember but it's inland rail Australia Australia say elephants obviously elephants. And I always see pictures of people posting like rooms with a window and a draught sticking out as they head into the window. Yes giraffes. Yep.
[00:21:45] Lion lay I believe cheetah. And who maybe Buffalo or hippo I don't know. Hippo. Let's go with him. Go ahead. Yeah those are the five five of our big five. Yeah. But yeah know we saw all the big five. We saw one of the famous spots where the buffalo have to cross the river. You've probably seen on documentaries and then all the hippos wait in the river and the hippos jump up and catch the buffalo. What. Yeah. It's a crazy scene. I mean we didn't we weren't at the time basically they're the buffaloes have to cross it's mating season. I think the hippos or Kong congregate around the part of the river where they cross because they know because they know they're coming and it's basically a free for all. You just have to run down as a buffalo charge for a get to Riverside without being caught by Hippo. So we saw that little bit at the river but there was no buffaloes at the time but we did see hippos swimming in the water.
[00:22:38] So we knew that when they put you guys up and when you're on safari and you're like in your camp like how close are you to the animals it's actually like seen.
[00:22:44] So at nighttime you were sort of in a in a safe area. You can hear the animals. I remember waking up and hearing animals like in the distance are like outside your tent not quite outside they were in the distance. So it is okay but when you're when you're on your safari vehicle and you're our in our in the park you get very very close to animals.
[00:23:04] A for you wouldn't be as close as you were but you'll actually park right next to Adam and yeah you've got to stick your head out there with the car you've got a lion there you've got a giraffe they've got you've got a cheetah there so it's an incredible way to see wildlife really close up and I guess in the wild really when you were in Africa. How was the food wombat food. Oh stands out for me was in Uganda and it was called Rolex like the watch but it's actually rolled eggs.
So they they make a very clever name as they say where they want to go.
[00:23:37] They they roll an omelet out or they make an omelet and then relish a patio put the omelet on the chassis and then roll it up. So it sounds pretty bland and it sounds pretty boring but trust me it was amazing. Absolutely beautiful it was. Sometimes they would add avocado they might add onions and they were so cheap but really filling. So the calorie to cash ratio. It was amazing. Elsewhere I went to a restaurant in Nairobi which is called Carnivore which is quite famous. They basically grill and all you can eat buffet of meat and some of the meat. So they had ostrich. They had alligator they had camel so it was kind of really trying some foods that you'd never normally try. Weirdly all tasted the same and all tasted like chicken. I know that's a cliché. And do the other surprising thing was some of the food that was available. So in Kampala the capital of Uganda they had a KFC which which caught me off guard about everywhere. There it is. Am I having my friend now. I tried to go to bizarre places in the world and I take a picture of KFC because he loves KFC and I send it to him. So we're building up a tally of weird KFC is around the world. It's quite funny. And Guinness as well they they sold bottles of Guinness.
[00:24:48] OK. So tell me a little bit more about like how was the fashion and the culture in Africa in comparison to what you were expecting and to overhear.
[00:24:57] Fashion was very full on some of the suits that African men wore were were incredible. Lots of very bright colors lots of sort of very light oversized ties which were quite cool actually. I often felt quite underdressed and the women were very bright and colorful clothes as well. In terms of the culture very friendly very very welcoming. You sit next to someone on a bus you know they are interested in where you're from they're interested in you know what's it like in your country why you're here. Kind of kind of questions very sort of accommodating you could be somewhere struggling to find directions or you could need a reservation or anything can they would help you. Is there any specific instance that sticks out to your mind on your trip. Yeah I guess in Rwanda. Me and a friend we decided to hire motorbikes and head off down the Congo Nile trail as you do. And we wanted to get from Kabui to Sanjay in a day which was to sort of big towns. So we said Often it was all going well on on our motorbikes and then suddenly the road which followed the trail just ended. And basically no one told us that the road wasn't finished. So it was effectively a building site. So it was quite tricky to sort of ride the motorbike over. Then it started raining. So now you're just like in jungle affectionately Yeah. Just in villages sort of right out in the countryside following this muddy path that was being built around us. There were diggers there were builders everywhere. And it was still visible in front of our eyes. So the mood was horrendous. We got stuck countless times. I guess you're having to like. Yeah like the brake push go a bit more fall off get off the bike portion. It was going on and on. We were going through villages and obviously kept falling off and crashing. We had loads of youngsters running after our bikes. Every time we stopped they were helping us to push then we'd get back on we'd had free again and then they'd be helping us the Porsche. We made lots of new friends and it was great actually because we were we were the only tourists there. Everyone was like What are you doing here. How have you got here. Right at the heart of the country. Just interacting with the locals. And we actually got to nightfall and we have nowhere to stay we were nowhere near where we planned to stop over for the night. We couldn't really go back. So we had was there is no trails no trail. There's no trail and the kids would go to sleep. So they went in there to push us. So we were in a bit of a mess and we just ask the man if there was any way we could stay because you know we were in the middle of nowhere effectively. And he said sure come to my guesthouse which was an amazing stroke of luck. I mean I'm not sure how many tourists this guesthouse gets but it was great for us he took us up. He made us food he gave us a few beers let us stay the night. We had a shower because we were caved in. And then the next morning he saw us off on our way. So with you know just complete random acts of kindness. Yeah.
[00:27:48] So what would you say to some of the misconceptions you think people currently still have about Africa that you as someone who's gone now can say that's not true.
[00:27:57] I guess the misconception is is you know what's there. What's the infrastructure like. Is it isn't it Jewel all just empty in Bahrain and and stuff. But actually I found really good infrastructure. It was quite easy to travel around. I mean it wasn't always the most comfortable ways of getting around but it was it was doable. The cities were amazing but places like Nairobi Kampala Kigali and Rwanda huge huge cities that have you know really big expat scene. Newborough ABM BS kind of everything you'd expect from my home for example here in London. So that was one I think people sort of thought. What you going to do there. How are you gonna get around this is not safe for tourists. So that was one misconception I guess I guess the other misconception may be is just kind of why you going almost got more people not why you want why you want to go there what's the what's the draw.
[00:28:51] And then when I went there seeing some of the sights I saw having some of the experiences I saw it was totally eye opening and it was so fun and it was so kind of trying to think of the word to describe it as it was so so freeing in a way just to go somewhere that's a bit off the beaten track and just have a lot of fun and I think probably final misconception would be that you have to have lots of money to go to Kenya for example. I mean I'm not gonna lie. Some of the things I did like a safari I went gorilla tracking they're not cheap activities but you don't have to be a sort of high end wealthy individual to go on a package tour of Kenya. You can you can go you can travel independently you can do a mixture of tours and stuff and there were plenty of people sort of travelling around. So I think maybe maybe that was a preconceived misconception as well that I found to be different. How is travelling to ever a kind of like Open your eyes in terms of traveling to other places in the world. I think probably just not judging a book by its cover rarely giving giving everything a chance. I think it would be very easy to sort of say that's too difficult or it's it's not feasible or I don't go on Instagram and people don't have photos from Rwanda or Uganda. Everyone's in Thailand or everyone's in South America. And it just opened my eyes to the possibility of you know you look at the map you look at places that aren't necessarily major tourist hubs and there's still light an incredible amount of things to offer like some of the experiences I had in these countries and the activities are dead.
[00:30:23] You wouldn't imagine that you could do them there really or you'd never think. And it's mainly because you just don't see it you don't see all the travellers doing it. You don't see. You don't see on social media. It's not talked about as much. And that's kind of made me realize that actually there's a lot of hidden gems out there that that you can find. You just have to be a little bit more open minded a little bit willing to take a take a gamble take a bit of a risk get off the beaten track and and just go in freeze over really and have a good time.
[00:30:50] Awesome. So as a person who's been to Africa what things would you recommend people to do if they visit in Africa.
[00:30:57] I mean safari would be would be would be one of the big ones which is kind of an obvious one. One thing I did in Uganda was gorilla tracking you can do it in other countries as well. So you basically they have a family of gorillas that every single day the Rangers go and visit them for an hour because they're kind of protecting them tracking them they're monitoring their movements and stuff. See yourself in the morning with two two guides a couple of Rangers head off into their forest. I did it in a windy impenetrable forest that was called and it really was impenetrable. It was a proper trek through the forest and then you come out and you basically find this family of gorillas and you spend an hour you get one hour to sort of just stand and watch them and sit and watch them. And it was amazing. So I definitely recommend that again yeah. Safari is great things to do you can you can go monkey tracking as well. I went to a monkey conservation center on the coast in Kenya which was great. Also good good tracking opportunities as well as Mount Kenya which is a really big mountain to climb and in the north of Uganda you can go and track as well. And the other thing I'd recommend to do would be to not be a scaredy cat like me and go and raft on the Nile. I didn't do it but I met plenty of people who did it. You can do it in Uganda in the place called Ginger and you can basically take take a raft down the Nile free the rapids.